(no subject)

[arethinn]

jarandhel wondered this on another forum, and I found the question interesting and thought I'd ask it here.

Quite a few otherkin (not to mention human esoteric practitioners, but it's not the context of this question) claim to occasionally travel to the Otherworld, the astral, Faerie, and such places, or to spirit-walk to their own original home realms or planets (such as the Elenari and the worlds Alorya and Yyl'nectoir). That is, they do this now, at-will, rather than only having memories of the place. But he noted with curiosity that he couldn't think of any instances where he'd heard angel-kin talking about travelling to Heaven right now (despite having been a moderator of an angelkin list in the past), or demons to Hell, or to Limbo, Purgatory, or other similar "afterlife" kinds of places such as Valhalla or Hel (actually I have heard of people travelling to Hel, I think), the Elysian Fields or Hades, depending on the kin in question. (My own ideas on Tir na nOg or "the Summerland" are kind of mixed up now that I frame the question that way; they are not meaningful for me, but I'm trying to remember what I heard various elder sidhe/elven/etc types talk about back in the day, where "the day" is defined as the late 1990s. Anyway--)

So the question is, if you're one of those sorts of kin, do you regularly travel to the relevant associated place? Or is it somehow barred, or have you not tried?

My own answer was only this, which is really why I'm posting this question here, as it's not a very good answer at all and I'd be interested to see what others have to say on the subject:

Huh... you know, I'm not sure. I have vague recollections of angelics talking about Heaven, but nothing specific is leaping to mind and I think they were mostly in memory-mode, not access-now mode. (Maybe one of the problems of angel-kin is "generally, can't get back there right now"?) Demons and Hell... hum. Again, I feel like I want to say "oh yeah, I've heard some people talking about it somewhere" but I can't come up with any examples. Granted I don't talk to a lot of demons.

Maybe the beings that rule these realms are powerful enough that mere us-es can't breach the borders without invitation, and no invitations are forthcoming? Perhaps it's evidence of specific exile (rather than mistake, willing travel, or being sent)? I really don't know. Interesting question.

edit: I think I misled to describe these as "afterlife" realms. That may be what they are, but I think the real nature of the question is why does it seem that certain kintypes (e.g. elves and faery) have fairly easy current access to their "home" realm by spirit travel (there may of course be exceptions), while others (angels, demons) do not? At least, that was so in his observations, and my own mental poll said "hey yeah, I haven't heard people talk about that except as memories, not as a right-now kind of thing."

Comments

[jarandhel]

If anyone wants more context, the original post is here: http://dreamhart.org/forum/otherkin-general-discussion/heaven-and-hell-and-limbo-and-purgatory/

Should be interesting to see what people think. :)

[all_adream]

Can't talk about the Judeo/Muslim/Christian versions of those places, but in Tibetan Buddhism, it is quite common for the capable to go to any of these realms, usually to help the beings there. Sometimes it happens in the time period when a person is 'temporarily dead', clinically dead for some days but comes back. The book by Tulku Thondup about "peaceful death, Joyful Rebirth" or similar name includes ten-twenty stories of this, right up to present day--

[all_adream]

The presumption is that you can't get in if you're not qualified, so to speak, which can include previous incarnations in those realms, or escort by a serious deity like Tara, but again, you need to have the merit/karma for it, which can include history there or with the beings involved.

[arethinn]

When you say "quite common", do you have a specific example? You yourself or someone else you know and can point to? I generalized from Jarin's original question (see the link he posted in another comment), because it seemed to me to be a common thread re: angelics not travelling to Heaven, demons not travelling to Hell, etc. as you might expect, but perhaps "afterlife - analogy" wasn't the best characterization.

[all_adream]

Yea, me, back before I got electrocuted. For some reason, having the physical body semitrashed on the nerve and electrical level sort of shorted me out, so I have pretty much zip abilities in that regard at all now. It used to be humbling and weird to get yanked into situations, awake and also in sleep, where it eventually became clear that someone was praying to get out of deep life-threatening, or life-ending, shit, and then I seemed to be sent/pulled/there as a direct result. To feel like the literal answer to someone's serious prayers is confusing and humbling in a serious way. People used to call me up and thank me for 'saving' them--from overseas, from next door--the day after I had 'saved' them in dreams. A Tibetan lama said that he 'felt safer knowing I was out there'--holy shit. I think things got so extreme that I wouldn't be surprised if I secretly was pretty glad to get wiped off the higher-level map--and it was a weird relief to become headblind, but then, it left me feeling sort of useless.

[all_adream]

Oh, and I think that the term that would apply in this cosmology/context would be 'an emanation' of whatever, like of Jizo Bodhisattva/Ksitigarba, or a dakini, female 'skygoer' being, or 'a protector'/dharmapala. There isn't so much angel stuff otherwise, really--

[of_carabas]

Fallen. So, there's that.

In general, though, the shamanic journey to the underworld is as close to a universal tradition as esotericism gets. Afterlife places are, as a rule, accessible.

[arethinn]

In general, yes. But the point of the question was about angel-kin currently being able to access Heaven at will, and similar circumstances. Are you an angel? (By "Fallen, so, there's that" I don't know if you mean yourself.) If so, are you able to get to Heaven at will right now, or do you only remember what it was like when you lived there "naturally"?

[of_carabas]

Sorry, didn't mean to be vague - yeah, I meant myself, and no, no return pass, hence fallen rather than angel.

[remiel]

I am an incarnate angel, and can visit Heaven at will (although I avoid it). I can also visit certain realms of Hell, the Elysian Fields, and Hades. I am not the only one that I know of, either. I am having trouble thinking of how to elaborate here, but if anyone has any questions or comments, please feel free to ask/tell me.

[arethinn]

The response that you can is enough for this question, but just tangentially, for curiosity's sake, I'm curious how you go there? What is it like? Is it any different from memories you have prior to incarnation (if that's how you got here)? Why do you say you avoid it? That's rather interesting - my own conception of angels and conversation with angel-kin would suppose they'd generally want to get back there ASAP unless there was a specific problem.

You say also Elysian Fields and Hades, though those are not usually terms I would associate with a JHVH-angel, if that's what you are (maybe you're an angelos not attached to him?). Not that they don't have their own reality and potentially visitable by anyone, but just saying - it's interesting that you picked up on those terms too. Anything to say about them?

Of course any/all of this may be too private. Just asking :)

[remiel]

No harm in asking, and I do not find any of this too private, so no worries there. Besides, I like questions. It forces me to put words to thoughts that I do not normally do.

"I'm curious how you go there?"

It varies. Sometimes, I go there via dreams. Sometimes, I get pulled there by various entities who want my attention. Most often, I do journeywork via meditation and visualization.

"What is it like?"

Since I avoid Heaven so much, I cannot really describe it well. I tend to stay outside the core city's gates, where it is a little more wild, with a meadow that leads to a forest. I see the city with lots of white marble, gold, silver, and sometimes gemstones. But I believe a lot of that is just my brain's perception of the energy.

"Is it any different from memories you have prior to incarnation (if that's how you got here)?"

I am a bit of an odd case. I am a multiple-turned-walk-in sort of. Essentially, I was incarnated into this body along with another angel. Most of this life, we were not aware of each other, and she was dominant. But last March, she took off, and now it is just me. So, I was incarnated that way, yes...but it is also similar to a walk-in since I am only recently the only one in the body.

It is not much different than my memories at all.

"Why do you say you avoid it?"

I never felt fully home in Heaven. I flitted between it and Hell over the years, and am somehow welcomed on both sides (although not fully; there are those I do not get along with). That push and pull eventually contributed to me coming here instead.


"You say also Elysian Fields and Hades, though those are not usually terms I would associate with a JHVH-angel... Anything to say about them?"

It is a bit complicated. Well, more than a bit. I am a JHVH-angel, but I also have ties to other cultures. The concept of angels pre-dates Judaism, and I have memories of those days as well. It winds up being this weird loop, the more you research into humanity's conception of angels.

When I say Elysian Fields and Hades, I am referring to the Greek concepts. I am tied to them more via working within that pantheon, than necessarily being an angel, although some of the lore surrounding my name ties me to those concepts, anyway.

My perception of Hades is cavern-like, but it bleeds into other areas, such as Erebus, and the Elysian Fields. I have only seen a segment of the latter, and it is full of barley-like plants.

It is not such a far stretch, if you want to take the route of lore, to see at least Hades mentioned. The historical and cultural development of the underworld, of Sheol, is influenced heavily by Greek myth, anyway. Some ancient Hebraic texts even use the term "Hades", and there is a non-canonical ancient text that tells a story of Yeshua going to the Underworld, where Hades and Satan are conversing. So to see cultural crossovers is not unheard of, even in old texts, let alone UPGs.

[arethinn]

I tend to stay outside the core city's gates, where it is a little more wild, with a meadow that leads to a forest. I see the city with lots of white marble, gold, silver, and sometimes gemstones.

Interesting. I've heard a few other angels and celestial types talk about this silver/white City up there too. (I have my own ideas about a sky/celestial realm, city, something but I assume it's not related to Heaven in this sense, since I'm not angelic.)

[kierawilson]

I didn't know Kizzy took off... how are you? She's okay, right?

[bloodstone_angel]

I identify as an angel (active). I travel to lots of places at will and as necessary: Heaven, Hell, Hades, underworld lands that are not part of Hades proper and have no name that I am aware of at present, and lands that are generally more associated with the Norse pantheon.

Hmm...

[ysabetwordsmith]

I can get to some of the afterlife places from here/now. But I'm a shapeshifter rather than angelic or whatnot. It's my priestessing and general worldwalking that gives me access, rather than kinship.

[spectrum_x]

I've dreamwalked to hell a few times. Mostly in the desert regions.

[feathertail]

I personally feel like where I'm at right now is the afterlife for me, and a reward from Inari (in the sense that gods reward their followers with a good afterlife).

I'm not quite sure how that relates.

[arethinn]

Calling it "afterlife" I think was misrepresenting the question, now that I think about it more. I've edited the original post to add:

edit: I think I misled to describe these as "afterlife" realms. That may be what they are, but I think the real nature of the question is why does it seem that certain kintypes (e.g. elves and faery) have fairly easy current access to their "home" realm by spirit travel (there may of course be exceptions), while others (angels, demons) do not? At least, that was so in his observations, and my own mental poll said "hey yeah, I haven't heard people talk about that except as memories, not as a right-now kind of thing."

[dinogrrl]

Half-demon here, kinda a reverse situation of a fallen angel (a risen demon?). Yes, she's capable of visiting Hell and lower realms of Heaven, but she chooses not to. I think it's mostly a self-preservation thing on her part. Don't go where you aren't welcome.

[dinogrrl]

Posted too soon. Should be:
Yes, she's capable of visiting Hell and lower realms of Heaven, and she has in the past, but she chooses not to nowadays.

[kierawilson]

I'm an archangel and I go Home on a regular basis. Not so much at will (there's another part of my consciousness that works there all the time) but in dreams and occasionally I'll get mostly yanked out because someone's in trouble (healer) and needs or wants my attention. It's surreal. Strangely enough, it usually happens during church.

Fortunately I'm naturally batty brained enough my choir friends just think I'm being squirrelly and chalk it up to my usual silliness when I drift off, lose five minutes or so of time or forget the words to my favorite hymns because I'm letting someone else drive.

Too much of a control freak to actually leave leave but I'm working on that.

[blessedbran]

Just tossing this out there.

What if, "heaven" is beyond our known universe and these other places are within it? The universe is vast, countless galaxies with even more stars and who knows what planets.

What if, and this is just a thought, these other places, elvenhomes and such, are on other planets and the veil is simply the vastness of space..?

Thus anything from 'heaven" could have a harder time getting back than something from another galaxy within our universe.

Not saying I believe this at all, just food for thought.

[arethinn]

Elves coming from other physical planets is well known in the community, actually (see Elenari for instance). However, I am not an angel, but I think the angels I know would object to the idea of Heaven being also a planet.

[blessedbran]

Arethinn. Oh, no, I wasn't suggesting heaven was a planet. I was suggesting :heaven" is something beyond our entire universe, and thus harder to get to...